A conversation with James Seechurn on the limits of incentives, the hidden cost of workplace policies, and why trust and autonomy - not another layer of control - may be what employees need.
Host: Tia Kleckner (CEO at LinkTech), Adam Kleckner (Head of Strategy at LinkTech)
Summary:
James Seechurn spent nearly 20 years designing compensation plans, career ladders, and performance systems before questioning whether they actually helped people do better work. Now the author of Close the Gap and host of Disengaged, he explores why companies keep adding controls to problems those controls helped create. From complicated commission plans to annual ratings, James challenges familiar practices and offers a practical starting point: small experiments, fewer unnecessary rules, and the willingness to ask people what they think.
Main Topics:
Why incentive plans become too complicated to motivate anyone
“Best practice” vs. common practice- and why copying others feels safer
The emotional and social cost of changing your mind
Trust without chaos: enough structure to support a shared purpose
Small experiments as an alternative to sweeping change programs
Removing policies and approval steps instead of adding more
Why performance depends on the environment, not just the individual
How yesterday’s innovation becomes tomorrow’s identity trap
Intriguing Quotes:
“I need to remind everyone that just being right is not enough.”
“Change is much more about emotions than it is about logic.”
“Should we be punishing everyone for the mistakes of the few?”
“You need profit, but irrelevance is the thing you should be afraid of, not falling profit.”
“To me, daydreaming and curiosity go hand in hand.”
Key Moments:
[02:14] The commission-plan trap: every new problem gets another incentive, claw back, or rule - until employees no longer understand how they’re paid.
[07:26] James challenges “best practice”: often, it means the most familiar approach and the one least likely to meet resistance - not the most effective.
[16:52] Autonomy isn’t an absence of structure. James makes the case for as little control as necessary to fulfill the company’s purpose.
[23:02] Start with a small yes. A limited experiment gives leaders a way to test a different approach without committing the whole organization.
[27:24] Roundabouts vs. traffic lights: a metaphor for trusting judgment instead of prescribing every action. Sometimes the solution is something you remove.
[38:24] Before labeling someone an A-player or a poor performer, ask what conditions helped them succeed - or pushed them toward failure.
[40:31] The practice James would retire: reducing a year of someone’s contribution to an annual rating between one and five.
[45:52] The trust test: does your manager ask “What do you think?” And do they give you room to act on the answer?
[47:51] What never appears on James’s resume: daydreaming - the space where curiosity connects ideas he couldn’t force together at a desk.
Notable Resources:
Close the Gap by James Seechurn
Disengaged — James’s podcast
Concepts: Intrinsic motivation; self-determination theory; organizational debt; belief perseverance; small-scale experimentation
Connect with James Seechurn:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-seechurn/
Substack: https://jamesseechurn.substack.com
Connect with The Human Advantage Podcast:
Website: https://www.thelinktech.com/podcast